Should Dive Certifications be a "license"

[Sarah]

Should dive training be in the form of a license where one is required to demonstrate proficiency and the license requires periodic renewal?

[Daddy-h2O]

No, it shouldn't be a licence. But there should be some better to "help" those with a LONG surface interval.

[acelockco]

Hell no,

I already paid once to get this thing, now you know there will of course be a fee involved. Plus, I am too busy diving to show some schmuck that works part time at my LDS that I know how to clear my mask.

They offer refresher courses and many resort destinations provide or offer a dive guide if you feel the need.

[hbh2oguard]

got to say NO, getting a basic OW c card is already a joke so renewing would be even a bigger joke

[Quero]

No. Many divers (and maybe all who frequent discussion lists like this one) have no need to be re-evaluated. And in my experience here in Thailand, divers who haven't been in the water for a while welcome an easy dive with lots of attention to ease them into their dive holiday, as our resident locksmith has pointed out.

However, there should be some procedure for suspending a cert that has been awarded.

[acelockco]

However, there should be some procedure for suspending a cert that has been awarded.


Oh boy, now that is a job for me. I can't imagine going up to some total tool and asking to see their C-Card. Then confiscate it, talk about a war!

[Quero]

Oh boy, now that is a job for me. I can't imagine going up to some total tool and asking to see their C-Card. Then confiscate it, talk about a war!

Yeah, it would be if you did it like that.

[kirwoodd]

Well,
from what I have read, it sounds like dive OPERATORS should be licensed and periodically checked. Too often I hear horror stories of "vacation divers" getting hurt/killed because they only dive once a year.

[Daddy-h2O]

Maybe an Ego check would be good?

[Carp_dm]

I think if a facility is going to cut corners on training they will find a way to cut corners on a licensing or renewal process as well.

[lars2923]

You all bring up good points... I support a verification process...
What that process should be, how it should be administered, and all the
details that go along with a verification process opens up an opportunity for
someone with the right motivation to organize the neccessary resources.

I also support remedial training for those who are found to need remedial
training through the verification process that enables them to retain their C-card.

Then again what do we gain by the process? I am sure there are none to
little data on divers being injured due to not being proficient in performing a
dive due to lack of diving over a period of time. What will be the gain? If one
divers life is saved, would that be worth it. I belive it is, but we live in a world
were everyting is based on the all mighty buck.

I support a verification process that is fair, just and reasonable.

[amtrosie]

Every one is focused on how it would inconvenience them and interfere with their diving. How do you deal with the diver who may dive once or twice a year? Who has gear that isn't serviced regularly? The same gear that is life sustaining, unless it is miss-used/abused, in which case, that very same equipment becomes an instrument of death? The diver who will not attend to their gear, will not do anything to sustain the skills learned in class.

So, what to do?

1. Check the logbook of the diver. Sure they can lie about previous dives, but now they are willfully deceiving.

2. Demand a 5-10 minute basic skills test. I have seen this demand exercised

3. Have an expiration date on the C-card. Re certification is by verification of some sort of documentation by an Instructor. This also, is being done at this very moment by a certain organization.

4. An additional level certification card could be presented in lieu of the re certified diver's original card. Showing that additional training has been pursued.

I am sure there are other ideas, thought up by people far smarter than I.




Before every one screams "hang the heretic" or "it is my right to do as I so please". Let me ask you, who guarantees that "right" to dive? How is that "right" provided? We are pursuing a recreational activity, by which numerous businesses have been established to assist us, encourage us, entice us to enjoy. Does not the whole premise of FUN fall flat when the participants ignore the established protocol for exercising and reveling in this recreation? If one is not practicing safe diving habits, how is that fun for the rest of diving population? If you are on the boat, or in the water with one of these individuals, how are you going to enjoy the dive knowing that they are incompetent, unpractised, and a serious danger to the rest of that boat? You see their poor diving could result in an accident, cutting short your dive or just ruining a good time for all others. For what? So that poor diver can exercise their "right" to dive? The rest of the dive boat/community must suffer due that diver's incompetence?

A standard must be set and maintained, FOR ALL.


If there are better ideas, I would welcome them. This prospect is not pleasant to contemplate.

[BamaCaveDiver]

I actually think it is the operators and instructors (anyone collecting a fee for their services related to diving) that should be liscensed. The SCUBA industry has done a rather good job over the years of policing its own ranks, and I think the liscensing of divers would erode that base away. We have driver's liscenses that have to be renewed every so often and look at how many stupid people there are behind the wheels of automobiles; so what makes anyone think that it would be any different with diving? The instructors and operators need to be held accountable for their actions if they accept so much as a nickle from a diver; arguing over whether the diver died due to plain or gross negligence is somewhat stupid in my mind.

[acelockco]

I think we certification should be optional. If you want to kill yourself, who am I to stop you?

There have been dives that I called, because I did not feel I had the skills, or equipment, or weather, or whatever to do the dive. If I did and something happened, bottom line is I would be the one to die or become injured and I would be responsiable for myself. Obviously dive operators and such need to cover their rear ends, so they check c-cards and such, but is there really any law that requires you to be certified?

When growing up, my next door neighbor bought some used gear at a yard sale and would go diving in a local river treasure hunting. It was only 10 feet of water or so, but he had NO formal training at all. Even 10 feet can be deadly. He was also a police officer, so he would get his cylinder filled at the fire station.

So really in the end, all it will be is another way for the training agencies to charge for something else.

[Carp_dm]

Many of the deaths lately have been people in poor physical condition or those that either concealed or weren't aware of cardio problems. I would be more in favor of divers being required to have perodic physicals to maintain certification than trying to police their skill level.

[phrenicnerve]

The answer to this for me is yes. I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though. You have one side of the diving community dedicated to the practice and development of safe diving practices, and the other involves the purse strings that keep the diving "industry" in business. I believe diving is a privilege not a right. If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.

[Quero]

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses.

You make some really excellent points. But when I think that my 75-year old mother just had her driver's license renewed BY MAIL for TEN MORE YEARS, it occurs to me that laws (if it were even possible to make them internationally binding) mandating re-certification would not likely work as intended.

[Diverdaniel]

my answer is Yes.
(deep breath)......
1. Here in Israel, it is LAW to have a Scuba Skills Update, or Refresh Dive if you have not dived in 6 months. this Law was passed cause people kept on killing themselves after one 4 day adv.OW and 5 months ie- 5-8 dives in total.
how is this law protected ? a person HAS to stamp his logbook with a dive-center stamp, this gived his dive an official verification. a person that has not stamped his logbook or last dive, cannot dive if 6 months are up, failure to enforce this law by the diveshops can result in heavy fines or even the colsure of the diveshop, its a Federal law here.
os, the diver that has not dived in 6 months has to go through this refreash dive, get signed off by an instructor AND a diveshop. the instructor HAS to sign and stamp and specify that the diver has gon through the update course and has passed/ or not and advise on going through the procedure again.


now, some agencies, such as SSI have a Sucuba Skills Update Program, this works with the Total Dive Log system.

1. the diver goes through the Update Course
in the SSI logbooks there is a Scuba skills update Tab, he/she gets a sticker and the instructor and club stamp verifiing that he has passd this course this tab is signed as well as the divelog page that is allso filled out and Agency Embossed.

on the SSI Cert-Card there is also a special place for this Update Sticker to be stuck on, this sticker on the Card and the Dive log tab+ the Embosser basically verify that this diver has gone through all the requirments of the agency and has passed the Update= ready to dive.
this system within itself is a form of ensureing that the diver did not forge or decieve.

the update takes about 4 hours from start to finish and includes a Class session covering the basic openwater training skills and knowlage review, if there is time and the diver wants more info, the instructor may give/go through more than is specified in the program and by law.

after this class sesion, there is an open water session that HAS to last no shorter than 45 min by law here, it begins at 1.2-1.5 meters with basic perging skills and only if the diver is comfortable with these skills do they dgo deeper to practice all other basic OW skills. this dive has a minnimum depth of 12 meters.

If i need ot renew my drivers license and first aid and CPR certs and Instructor status every year.... why shouldnt a diver need to show that he still knows how to dive if he hasnt dived in a certain period of time.

this law only aplies to divers that are not certified dive leaders
i have has several dive leaders that have not dived in a long while that have asked for an update and water time with an active instructor, but that is another story to do with being a responsible diver, what most divers here i am sorry to say, are not.

sorry about the length.

[Mountain Dog]

I have yet to see a single argument presented here that convinces me there is any value at all in re-certification. I admit that I come at this from the perspective of one who abhors the notion of a "nanny state" mindset. Absent any concrete validation for additional regulations governing our every move, I strongly oppose their enactment.

As has been pointed out here, it is possible to get certified with minimal effort. There is no reason to believe that re-certification would be any more difficult.

As has also been pointed out, it is possible to obtain re-certification to wield a four thousand pound instrument of death on our highways simply by mailing in a check. If this is acceptable, why should a diver face anything more stringent?

phrenicnerve suggests that re-certifying should become a government function. I cannot think of anything worse that could happen to diving than having the government regulate the licensing of divers. I would rather find myself in the middle of a Bull shark feeding frenzy than have to stand in line at the "Bureau of Diving License Renewals" office to gain government permission to pursue my hobby. The best thing about the certifying agencies is that they provide a layer of seperation between us and the government. The self-policing of diving they project is about the only thing keeping the long arm of the law away from our sport. There is absolutely NOTHING the government could or would do to make diving safer or better.

In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility.

Mountain Dog

[Tigerbeach]

"In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility."


I appreciate your declaration, Mountain Dog.

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

ASW

[acelockco]

They SAY it, but can't Do it.



Well, I guess if they say they can do it, but can't then let them be shark bait. It won't stop me from diving. You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else. There are too many rules in this world to begin with. Can you imagine if this sport was regulated like things at the National Park Service?

Hey, bottom line, more room on the dive boat for me and something to talk about here, right?

[Tigerbeach]

It won't stop me from diving. You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else. There are too many rules in this world to begin with.

I trained safe divers until the Industry wouldn't support me to do so;
My job was worrying about everyone else.

It didn't stop me from diving either!

[Mountain Dog]

[QUOTE=Tigerbeach;5926
The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

ASW[/QUOTE]


You make a sound case for why divers should be better trained than they are, and why certification should be tougher than it is. I don't disagree with this at all. But my question is, how does placing an expiration date on certification answer your concern?

I agree with Ace that our world has gotten rule-happy. I guarantee that if the government steps into the diver certification process, there won't be one diver in the country that will be happy with the outcome. There is no way that government regulation would improve the diving experience or make it any safer.

I just feel that we are far better off with the type of self-regulation system we have now. It's not perfect, but who knows more about diving - the certifying agencies or a group of political-appointee bureaucrats in Washington?

What we should be doing is promoting advanced dive training to our friends and diving partners. You don't have to get in their face and tell them they are a bad diver, but you can tell them how you benefited from this training or reading that book, and so on. I belong to a dive club where egos get checked at the door. When we dive with each other we actively seek out critiques,practice skills together, and freely discuss all aspects of diving. This kind of "community spirit" mindset to continuing education is far better than writing a renewal check to a government agency every few years.

Mountain Dog

[lars2923]

What is the posted question again and what is it intended to ask?

You take a test both written and practical every Y number of years.
If you've been keeping up on your skills, it shouldn't be a problem. If you
haven't been keeping up then remedial training is required through any dive
agency.

I do not want any governments involved in any of this. They'll just screw it up
and diving will no longer be an adventure.

The dive industry has been very good at self regulating, let's keep it that way.

We've seen from time to time, an individual we said to ourselve, man they
need more experience, practice, whatever. These are the types of people
we're takling about. The ones you say, "should they be doing this dive" The
one you when ask them and they say "Who are you to tell me I can't", the
ones that feel they need to push their limit a little too far too quick. You can
choose not dive with them, but you came to dive. It's not fair, but life not
fair.. Should something happen to them and you were not there to help, or if
you were, the experience, the memories. I can go on and one and a million
post can add a million more reasons. There are a million ways this can be
handled and will not be resolved in a forum.


So whats the point of writing all this stuff about should and shouldn't good for
other than a way to vent our personal opinion on what we perceive to be correct?

So keep up the input, maybe someone will collect everything that is written
and formulate a conclusion that will say recerts is a fad or a fact.
Who knows...???

[acelockco]

So whats the point of writing all this stuff about should and shouldn't good for
other than a way to vent our personal opinion on what we perceive to be correct?




Can't that be enough?

[Quero]

...let them be shark bait...
...You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else.
...bottom line, more room on the dive boat for me...

But when a diver is trained in rescue techniques (as a rescue diver, for example) and is on a boat with a "shark bait" diver who needs rescuing, the rescue diver is morally bound to participate in the rescue as long as it does not present an unreasonable danger to her/himself; further, s/he may be *legally* bound as well. For dive professionals the duty of care (i.e., "worrying about people") is even more pressing. Saying that unskilled divers who may get into trouble are "shark bait" and "leave more space on the boat" for more proficient divers is a bit harsh, IMO.

While I do not believe that most divers I see need full-scale bi-annual recertification documentation (as described by DiverDaniel), I can recognize that this kind of across-the-board regulation is easier to enforce than a reporting system that would require individual divers to get a refresher or give up diving. If the agencies themselves made a strict 6-month rule, there would no doubt be a hue and cry claiming they were doing it simply to "sell" a refresher course, with that tired old refrain "the almighty dollar" rearing its ugly head.

[acelockco]

You know and another thing:

I want everyone to think really hard now, don't you all remember your dive instructor saying this is only a license to learn when you were getting certified.

So if that is the case, the retest is pointless, maybe you are learning slowly. Is there going to be a law against that as well? So then I guess that there will have to be a minimum IQ level required to get certified? When will this all end??????

Also, if you are one of the people that think this is a good idea, put your money where your mouth is. If you really feel this is important, are you going to pay for this? Now are you going to pay for all of us that will be forced into this and did not want it?

I didn't think so!

[acelockco]

But when a diver is trained in rescue techniques (as a rescue diver, for example) and is on a boat with a "shark bait" diver who needs rescuing, the rescue diver is morally bound to participate in the rescue as long as it does not present an unreasonable danger to her/himself; further, s/he may be *legally* bound as well. For dive professionals the duty of care (i.e., "worrying about people") is even more pressing. Saying that unskilled divers who may get into trouble are "shark bait" and "leave more space on the boat" for more proficient divers is a bit harsh, IMO.



A bit harsh, yes, but that is the way I usually am.

As far as an unreasonable danger, how is this for reasonable. If I am on a dive boat and see something happen, I think I could make the danger reasonable as long as I had already completed 1 dive. See, during your surface interval you are decompressing, it is not advised to do much physical activity while decompressing. I think being in any part of a rescue operation would put me at risk of getting decompression sickness. Now that is my story and I am sticking to that one.

Now I definately understand your side of things as you are a dive operator and have to take responsibility of these people. Most operations take care of this by requesting to see your log book so they take you to an appropriate dive location. I know you are not going to be taking newly certified divers to the deep technical dives with low visibility and strong currents. Just as I know if you enjoy having a long term business, you will also not bring highly skilled divers to the shallow 25 foot reef that has 100 feet of visibility, no current, no challange for them and nothing new to see.

Isn't it nice that you can do it how you want rather than being told another way to do things?

[Tigerbeach]

Yeah, I'll pay for ya Ace.

I know you are getting older, and forgetful sometimes...LOL

[acelockco]

Yeah, I'll pay for ya Ace.

I know you are getting older, and forgetful sometimes...LOL


OK, now I am really laughing. We gota do some dives together sometime! I am sure we would have a blast!

[Tigerbeach]

Yeah, I figured out what "senior" meant on your profile...

We will have to do that sometime.
ASW

[Diverdaniel]

You make some really excellent points. But when I think that my 75-year old mother just had her driver's license renewed BY MAIL for TEN MORE YEARS, it occurs to me that laws (if it were even possible to make them internationally binding) mandating re-certification would not likely work as intended.

well, about the age thing, my grandmother is going to be 80 this January, she still has the instincts of a 20+ year old behind the wheel, in my eyes its all personal responsibility.
she has decided that she will stop speeding cause of the other mad, reckless drivers:)

easier to enforce a divelaw than a drive law i think, at least it is here in Israel.

[Diverdaniel]

i would like to correct any misunderstanding, the Refreash dive required is only if you have not dived in the passed 6 months, no written tests, just a lcass review with a long openwater dive in whitch the divers skill is re-evaluated.
all this is here to keep the diver alive and try to ensure that he comes out of the water alive, there is also a Law that you HAVE to have international diving insurance, otherwise, no dive.

you ALL have good points, i am honored to be around thinking wellmannered and responsible good people.

thiere is also this point, and alot of people disagree on this one, it was stated here that the diver should be responsible for himself and be able to make the call wheather or not he can dive and get out of the water alive afterwards,
from what i have read here , you are all responsible divers, good divers, but what of the people that do not have the humility, the responsibility, the integrity to take a refreash course on their own? i am sad to say that i do not know many that would do so on their own accord.

on the otherhand, what this law has done, is create ill feeling toward the industry, not many people will accept that it is got their own good.
another point is that it gives work ie money to the dive leaders here.
not everyone needs a refreash course, i have seen and dived with divers that have not dived as long as 20 years and still be good good divers, so they need a skills update on the equipment and theory, but in the water..... they are at home and have great bouyancy, regardless of new equipment,
On the otherhand, i have seen divers that after 4 months(im not kidding you) do not remember how to put their equipment together from a-z without help, only after some small talk and pointing out gently and diplomatically, why not go diving with me, we can work on some skills and feel more confident in the water, those divers realise that they need this update, most do not and end up hurting themselves or the environment unfortunately.

[Diverdaniel]

oh, and it would be an honor and pleasure to dive with you all.
when you all coming to the Red-Sea, Eilat?

[acelockco]

I have been to Elat and was able to snorkel in the Red Sea, but I was unable to dive at the time. It was back in 1990 or so, we had a great time. That place is like paradise! I would love to go back, but I usually only go to a place one time, because there are so many other places in the world to go.

[amtrosie]

What is the posted question again and what is it intended to ask?

You take a test both written and practical every Y number of years.
If you've been keeping up on your skills, it shouldn't be a problem. If you
haven't been keeping up then remedial training is required through any dive
agency.

I do not want any governments involved in any of this. They'll just screw it up
and diving will no longer be an adventure.

The dive industry has been very good at self regulating, let's keep it that way.








There are three issues here:

1. The people "cussin and discussin" this issue are ALL active divers! This whole discussion is a moot point.

2. The individuals who take a cavalier attitude towards their diving, also take that same attitude to the divers around them when they eventually roll into the water for their single annual dive (if that). Endangering us all.

3. Today's litigious society pre-empts any thought of personal responsibility. Just see the thread on the high court in CA assigning blame to a camp for the death of a child, even though the mother had signed a release waiver for the very activity that the child died doing! I know, intimately how quick the legal system is to sue anyone other than the agrieved. Personal responsibility is no longer acknowledged! If you don't believe me look at the next diving activity waiver that is placed before you!

The premise that the dive industry regulates itself is such a farce, it almost becomes laughable!!!! How is the industry doing anything to control and advance the sport of diving? They sell gear without any proof of diving knowledge (in the form of c-card, or other). The training agencies have "watered down" the curriculum to the point that there is ample discussion as to the ability of 8 to 10 year olds!!! What was the time requirerments for training 15-20 years ago, compared to now? It used to be a MINIMUM of thirty hours for basic openwater, now 16 hours covers everything! Equipment has not improved to make up this void in training! What sort of skills requirerment is demanded? Both the snorkeling and scuba skills have been obliterated to the point that a student, presented with any problem, is in serious trouble to sort out any situation without panicing.

Sure the equipment is better than 30 or 40 years ago, why aren't the students? Why is it that anyone who wants to dive is automatically granted this wish as though it were a constitutional right? (sorry for the US reference here). The ability of the prospective student is not even considered. Whether that be physical or mental, forget the emotional considerations. I have witnessed husband/wife teams, where one partner was completely dis-engaged from the entire activity, but had been "dragged" into it.

Finally, I could not agree more with the assertion of trying to keep the government out of this whole enterprise. That will truely be the end of this sport, as it is enjoyed today!!!!! This is why we must be PROACTIVE in reversing the path that this sport is headed down, and REACTIVE to any government agency coming in and making all manner of bad regulation.

To wrap up this lengthy post: We who discuss this, are not the problem! It is rather those that are absent, who are the problem.

[acelockco]

amtrosie,

You have all valid points there, and I have to agree with you. As far as this being a litigious society, I think that is mostly in the U.S. I don't really think other countries would allow this nonsense into their court. I am usually not one for government involvement, but it would be nice if our government did step in there and put a stop to that crap. Just as long as they stay away from diving.

[amtrosie]

amtrosie,

You have all valid points there, and I have to agree with you. As far as this being a litigious society, I think that is mostly in the U.S. I don't really think other countries would allow this nonsense into their court. I am usually not one for government involvement, but it would be nice if our government did step in there and put a stop to that crap. Just as long as they stay away from diving.



Yeah, riiiiggghhhhtttt!!! a government full of lawyers, telling lawyers to stop. I have a real good picture of that happening!!!

[acelockco]

No,

what you do is make 1 new law, called the Frivolous Lawsuit Law. Make it so that if anyone is found abusing the system, that they can be criminally charged.

Seriously how many BS lawsuits would be dropped as soon as they knew if it went to court they could end up in jail. As of now, anyone can take anyone else to court for any reason, valid or not. They may not win, but there are no consequences right now.

[Quero]

well, about the age thing, my grandmother is going to be 80 this January, she still has the instincts of a 20+ year old behind the wheel, in my eyes its all personal responsibility.
she has decided that she will stop speeding cause of the other mad, reckless drivers:)

easier to enforce a divelaw than a drive law i think, at least it is here in Israel.

If it's all personal responsibility, DD, then we don't need laws, now do we? Divers who are not equipped (skillwise) to execute the dive would just opt out and not kill themselves, which you said was the impetus for Israel's implementing the law you describe.

[Diverdaniel]

first off, amtrosie good one.

i think i need to rephrase that post of mine, it isnt relevant at all come to think of it.

i was mistaken, in both instances divers & drivers need to have a medical checkup every so often once they reach a certain age, of course it is their responsibility not to dive/drive if something is wrong with them, if they do and someting happens to them, ie they get themselves killed.... well i guess its nature getting rid of the irre4ponsible ones.
the govornment has taken this under its wing in order to try and prevent the irresponsible ones from doing it, but there is only so much they can do.
i wish it were all about personal responsibility and that all people were responsible. yup, Quero, we would not need a dive law.
everything has its goods and bads i guess.

[seasnake]

I like the idea of better regulating of the dive professionals. If we were held to a higher standard and validated more often, that would probably trickle down to all divers?? Maybe??

[acelockco]

Very good point seasnake.

Really that would be the best place to start.

[phrenicnerve]

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.

[acelockco]

but then you would be sued by some fat slob saying you descriminated based on their physical shape or weight or lack of fitness.

[phrenicnerve]

yeah i know your right. i'm gonna go puke. :D

[Papa Bear]

The answer to this for me is yes. I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though. You have one side of the diving community dedicated to the practice and development of safe diving practices, and the other involves the purse strings that keep the diving "industry" in business. I believe diving is a privilege not a right. If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.

"I believe diving is a privilege not a right." Wow!!!!

Well okay comrade! It is a pretty simple activity and pretty safe once you have the basics! My freedom to dive is a right! My privilege is to have a card that will get me air! And release the provider of the air from liability! You sound pretty snobbish and seem to have an Elitist attitude. Who are you to decide for someone if a risk is acceptable? You don't like the free market in the sport? Without it we wouldn't have a 10th of the equipment and it would be 10 times as expensive! What is wrong with selling a product? Should baseball bats be free or Golf Clubs or maybe just one kind so you don't get sold! Sounds like you have had some bad experiences and I think you suck not the diving community! It is the best bunch of people anywhere!

Look diving is easy anyone can do it! The number one rule is breath and you could have forgotten everything else!

We don't have a lot of deaths in this activity. The ones we do have are when people go beyond their ability or miss judge the situation. You want to stop death stop driving to the dive site and those people have a license. What good does that do you are either a good drive or not and the fact you have a license doesn't mean squat.

If you haven't noticed I am not for any requirement that takes your money and puts a bureaucracy in charge! This is not rocket science! We need more divers not less, we need just what we have personal responsibility, and release of liability for the shop or boat providing air!

Answer me this what if you slipped by? So what? You're not driving a sub you are swimming underwater with an air supply. Are you trying to empress your friends and family with how hard diving is? Stop and use your head, we need to get as many people to appreciated the underwater world as possible! And if people were dying left and right then I could understand, but I will not give up my RIGHT to dive period.

What would keep someone from buying a compressor and a boat and diving all they wanted without your license? Next we will have SCUBA police? It is bad enough at Laguna Beach we don't need more of that!

[phrenicnerve]

:eek:

hey papa if you want to strap a tank on anyone that wants to dive and all the while be taking their money to travel on your boat go right ahead!

if I were anything you describe, I'd be out on your boat talking **** about democrats and praising the republicans - as if they are different from one another.

don't pretend to know anything about me.

[acelockco]

You sound pretty snobbish and seem to have an Elitist attitude. Who are you to decide for someone if a risk is acceptable? .........Sounds like you have had some bad experiences and I think you suck not the diving community!

Papa Bear, we love to have you here, but watch the name calling as it is not necessary or proper here. Remember you are a newbie here so instead of starting off on the wrong foot take a chill and watch your tone.

We are here not to preach, but to discuss our ideas and thoughts.

Ace

[Daddy-h2O]

I will side wit PB on this one. I think that a nerve was hit. Phrenicnerve attititude does come off a little high handed in tone in the writen form.

phrenicnerve posted
I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though.

So he thinks that some goverment agency should step in and take the sport over? and add another cost to the sport.


If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise. Because ever we are just turning out sub standard divers? By who's standard?


The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

We don't need lawyers and more laws. Again then we would be mandated to having insurance (DAN would be forced to eliminate coverage or raise prices to stay competitive in the market place)and more cost to a recreational sport. There will always be deaths in any sport. Is there any sporting activity already under goverment regulations?

I think that if the "industry" is going to make a satnd about renewal it should be based on how active one is. The diver who only dives warm water on vacation vs the diver who is diving all the time in any body of water are two diffrent divers


I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.


Ummm, wow. Can you back this up? Do you have personel experiance that you can share?, most shop owners I know are not detached from life, nor driving fancy cars or living in oversized houses. They are regular guys doing a job they love, with the same daily struggles we all have.

As far as comparing Musician to the dive industry, that is a leap (in my mind anyways) Musician tend to be playing for a very wide range of listeners and hope that whatever they are singing/playing about hits a big enough audiance to fill thier vaults. The dive industry understand that in order to keep themselves self-regulated that they need and must keep as good a safety record as possible. To this end I think they are doing a great job!

Now if the industry want to enforce the refresher course issue or want to see my log book to varify that I dive at least every 6 monthes or so I have no problem with that. Or even providing a name or two of people I regularly dive with, I am fine. I don't want goverment regulation impossed on this sport.

[Tigerbeach]

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.



Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

[Papa Bear]

:eek:

hey papa if you want to strap a tank on anyone that wants to dive and all the while be taking their money to travel on your boat go right ahead!

if I were anything you describe, I'd be out on your boat talking **** about democrats and praising the republicans - as if they are different from one another.

don't pretend to know anything about me.

First I was Invited here! I am not NEW at anything, but if people can't take the truth and feel set upon then they will get defensive because they have a weak position! A lot of Handicapped divers will be said to hear they can't dive anymore! My god I have seen dogs dive! I don't ever remember saying anything about taking people on MY boat or Democrats and Republicans? But is you want to bring in politics fine! The mind set is the same! "We only want to help you!" Not sure where the **** comes from? You need to make the distinction between a personal attack and attack on your ideas! I never said anything about you except that you were "Sounding Elitist" and you do sound that way to me! I am now not entitled to my opinion?

AS far as holding back never have never will! I am what I am take it or leave it! As far as knowing anything about anyone, I can only judge your ideas that you express here. As far as the Activity and the Industry I am the strongest supporter. I support anything that gets MORE people underwater! SCUBA or Sub people need to go and understand, that is our future of understanding, we don't need only special forces going into the "Mysterious Deep"!

One last thing you "can" strap a tank on "anybody" who is willing to learn and go! wow it is that simple! I don't recall describing you in anyway.

One last thing: You seem to think you know me with the political reference and I am dam prod of it! God Bless the USA!:) BTW it just got un-boring! LOL

[Papa Bear]

Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

Wish I could quote a quote. LOL

I think I know the frustration that you are experiencing, but the old days are gone when I ran down the beach for a quarter mile in full gear jumped in the ocean and crawled over rocks in 6 ft surf.

But what time has taught me is if you have the desire to do it you will improve your skills. I would rather get an interested diver of limited ability with desire than a person will all the skills and no desire. You see it with Girl friends and spouses. They can physically do it but their hearts aren't in it!

What we need is Tort reform and less liability and more personal responsibility! More people drowned while swimming, so why don't we require a certificate to swim? Why isn't Swimming a privilege and not a right? Is it the tank of air? Again that is what a card is! A release of liability for the supplier of air! Not a comment on skill! In a recent Dive Mag article they profile a quadriplegic diver! He has every right to the limit of his capability! The whole thing is mind set and how you think of it! Not everyone wants to dive to 200ft through the Surf!

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!

We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

[Papa Bear]

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.

No they don't! How does someone with no legs take the test? We are divers not swimmers! What comes first the chicken or the egg? I is about knowing your limits! If you took a Olympic swimmer out on MY boat to the Andra Doria and Said come with me! How many would go? Not sure you would get them in the water and they are the best of the best in the water! It is about diving within your limits! Period and if you go beyond YOU are taking the responsibility!

[acelockco]

There goes the neighborhood!

[Tigerbeach]

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!
We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

This is all I know. I dove this way, and I taught this way.
It's the only thing that works for difficult ocean dives; ones that involve surf, riptides, or currents.

As I see it, there are lots easy, easy places to dive. And, there are others that are potential killers.
Our Industry does not distinguish this. Hindsight can be too late.

I understand the industry has changed; there is new technology and training for new situations; (there are even Split fins...oops!)
But that is mostly for advanced training.
It's the basic divers I am most concerned about. Some, catch the bug, and dive and train for life;
and then complain on scuba chat boards decades later.

It's the occasional divers that worry me.
The ones with feeble water skills to begin with, that get a c-card.
Did they ever get proper training? Did they ever practice and improve?
The guys (mostly) that don't dive for 5 or 10 years and then rent gear...
I think some kind of regulation is needed for them.
If they aren't diving regularly, or even occasionally,
they should need to re-train. Or get certified again.

Also, not everyone is trained for every dive environment;
I think that is where people also get into trouble.
If you trained to step off a boat; stay away from surf entries!
Their c-card doesn't distinguish the environment they were trained for.

Years ago, at Laguna Sea Sports, we'd call the life guards if someone rented gear that we had suspicions about, or we knew the conditions were too rough. The guards were happy to kick them out; instead of searching for a body later.

You can go ahead and strap a tank on grandma;
but you may have to be ready to drag her out of the pool when she's done.

[lottie]

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

A chicken and egg are lying in bed.
The chicken is smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face, the egg is frowning and looking a tad put out.
The egg mutters "Hmm, well I guess we answered THAT question"


I'm sorry..but couldn't resist :D :D

[Tigerbeach]

That is awesome!

[Papa Bear]

We wouldn't do this in any other activity. Surfing, Skiing, or any activity that may have risk. To live you can't be afraid to die! Otherwise stay at home. It has changed, but you can still teach your way to those who will go on! If a skier falls all the time and you see him going for the Black Diamond hill you might say something or make a suggestion. But you can't stop him! Our activity involves water and equipment to breath under it add some physics and you have diving. But young, old, fat and skinny all have the right to ski without a test and as Sony Bono knows it can kill you!

Now I know the answer.

I always worry about people who worry about the neighborhood, this place is about discussion otherwise go watch TV. If you didn't want my opinion then don't ask, that simple, I was under the impression this was an open neighborhood? If you accept split-fins you should accept anything!

The one thing I wont do is set back and let people push the "Good Idea" of more regulations down our throats! What do we want? Think Folks, Think!

The impression is people are dropping dead all over the place when they aren't! People are naturally afraid of the water by instinct and a good instructor turns that into respect and wonder. Safe is a matter of risk! Would I recommend that a Paraplegic diver do a Laguna Beach dive. The key is assessing the goal and the amount of acceptable risk.

So why do people swim and what about the good swimmers verses the bad ones? I keep telling you all it is about the air and that is all! We all have the RIGHT to jump off the Black Diamond hill! We have great instructors that give there souls to make good and safe divers, but you can't make people react to panic or stress the way you want them to.

All you can do is your best and then personal responsibility has to take over!
We aren't the Dive Corp we just love to dive and we want others to do it as well.

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be! But everyone lighten up! We know witch came first!

[Tigerbeach]

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be!


You know, I DO love this stuff...
Maybe I'll look back into teaching again, part time...
I'd probably have to mellow out a bit, first...:)

[Papa Bear]

You know, I DO love this stuff...
Maybe I'll look back into teaching again, part time...
I'd probably have to mellow out a bit, first...:)

Be careful that's how it starts! Pretty soon you will be spending all your lunch money on Dive crap and those ****ty trips! ;)

[Papa Bear]

Now that's funny! crappy okay ****ty not? LOL LMAO!!!

[phrenicnerve]

First I was Invited here! I am not NEW at anything, but if people can't take the truth and feel set upon then they will get defensive because they have a weak position! A lot of Handicapped divers will be said to hear they can't dive anymore! My god I have seen dogs dive! I don't ever remember saying anything about taking people on MY boat or Democrats and Republicans? But is you want to bring in politics fine! The mind set is the same! "We only want to help you!" Not sure where the **** comes from? You need to make the distinction between a personal attack and attack on your ideas! I never said anything about you except that you were "Sounding Elitist" and you do sound that way to me! I am now not entitled to my opinion?

AS far as holding back never have never will! I am what I am take it or leave it! As far as knowing anything about anyone, I can only judge your ideas that you express here. As far as the Activity and the Industry I am the strongest supporter. I support anything that gets MORE people underwater! SCUBA or Sub people need to go and understand, that is our future of understanding, we don't need only special forces going into the "Mysterious Deep"!

One last thing you "can" strap a tank on "anybody" who is willing to learn and go! wow it is that simple! I don't recall describing you in anyway.

One last thing: You seem to think you know me with the political reference and I am dam prod of it! God Bless the USA!:) BTW it just got un-boring! LOL

that's exactly the point papa bear - the question presented demands an OPINION as an answer. So I presented an opinion. The irony here is that I am about as far away from supporting anything government as one could get, but I can't say I trust many people more than I do a politician. I have been receiving your bulletins about "dumbocrats" on myspace for how long now? Almost daily your political position is spat out in a bulletin. This is why I already know your position on this subject and the personal insults are rediculous. I was a big fan of your site, but these insults lead me to realize you are someone other than what I thought.

What I took from the opinions that were stated here on this subject is that physical fitness seems to be a problem. As well as a reliable skill set. The other side of the issue is should these divers be set free to possibly kill themselves? I say no, but if you want to take them out, enjoy. I would trust you'd know what to do with them to keep things safe and hopefully fun.

When you bring up hadicap people and such wanting to go diving, I have no problems with this, and didn't know that this is possible. In fact I think that is beautiful. I survived cancer last year, and I did my AOW certification one month after radiation. My class was required to complete 5 laps in the pool. I was still drained from radiation but I worked hard and managed. If the 5 laps are not required for a PADI certification, I guess my mentors are pushing a higher standard because we had to do it.

If saying to me that I suck isn't a personal attack I don't know what else is! You didn't care to say the idea sucks, you directed it to me personally and I guess I need to split this forum because I don't want any of this.

[Tigerbeach]

If you accept split-fins you should accept anything!


Hmmm. Split fins or Papa Bear; split fins or Papa Bear.....???


I'll take a lively debate any day over fins-lite!

[Papa Bear]

I suck air every dive? Oh well don't let the split fin hit you were your momma split you! ???? BTW I am a two time cancer survivor!! Not sure what that has to do with the activity except proving that any one can do it! Even me! You don't have to open the bulletins, did you know that? So the only one entitled to opinions is you? Okay and I am sure that it is a fine one in your mind, the problem is when you sake it out in the real world it doesn't fly! Believe it or not there are people in this country that are driving cars without a license and the same goes for SCUBA. That how the system we have came to be, you control the air you control the diver to a point, but if someone to bad enough they will. I have a family friend that dived for years without a cert, but to go with me he was forced to go get legal! Your statement that Diving is a privilege scars the crap out of me! That is exactly what the Dumocrats want is more people who think as you do. Know your friends, but know your enemies better! In this country the constitution is a limiting document for the government not us! We are the people! So if must go, go and we shall never speak your name again;(

[Papa Bear]

TB, what are you still doing here? I figured you already have a class of Polliwogs making them into real divers;)

[Tigerbeach]

TB, what are you still doing here? I figured you already have a class of Polliwogs making them into real divers;)

Shhhh! I'm giving them a swim test.

They'll tread water next...

[phrenicnerve]

You know what, it has become clear that you are not paying any attention to what I am saying, so this hardly is a two way debate. Your not commanding any respect from me because you are not willing to give it. Your not sure what anything I have said means because you don't care to see past your own arrogance papa. your calling me an elitist? I said privilege because diving is dangerous. So is driving. It is not swimming, surfing, or body boarding where some people who are comfortable there, are not so comfortable underwater diving. For those who want to do whatever they want without a license I believe I said already that this will always exist.

One of the big complaints here was vacation divers that are out of shape, forgotten how to prepare their gear, and end up drowning because things didn't go as easy as they had hoped. This leaves the DM or resort or dive shop open to a question of responsibility as to "did they put the divers safety first" or were they quick to take the money and leave it at that. If you want to endorse this practice, go ahead. It's none of my business and I don't want it to be. Have at it!

Otherwise I believe that people have the right to enjoy the water however they wish. And hopefully they do it often and gain a respect for the water. Hopefully they are not trashing the fragile environment at the same time while wrecklessly going about their business.

[Papa Bear]

You have kinda changed your "tune" sense the first chord! I said you were being Elitist! And I stand behind what I said. SCUBA is very safe once you understand the process. Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive! More training isn't why, if they like it and want more they seek more training! The idea is to allow as many as want to, to have the experience. The Idea that you keep floating that "This is a Dangerous Sport" is just hogwash! It can be, but anyone can do it!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives has had a "few" close calls, mostly when I was young and bold, but still loves the Ocean and feels as safe in it as most people home mowing their lawn! Oh ya there is risk in that as well!

You are right about one thing I don't get YOU!:cool:

[acelockco]

[QUOTE=Papa Bear;6465] Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives ....QUOTE]


Where did you come up with this? You are WRONG! Most people ARE afraid to breathe underwater. It is against instinct and can be a problem for many people just starting out. Most people are afraid of sharks, but not as afraid as they are of not breathing!!!! Think about it.

Now aboutyour 4000+ dives and such, it maybe true, or it may be something you made up as no one has anyway to prove or disprove that. If it is true however, I think we found the problem. In your 56 years, I bet you learned a lot, but I think you have forgot a lot as well! You seem to think and you definately act like you are better than others here.

It must be that you are getting so old, because you are acting like the mean old man yelling at all of the kids in the neighborhood. All the while the kids are getting a kick out of taunting the old man.

You would think as a newbie (maybe you have a billion dives and 1000+ C-cards in every subject including jacking off) but you are a newbie HERE, you should have a little respect for the other users. All you are doing is showing how much of an A55hole you really are.

You said take it or leave it in another post, really I would perfer to leave it. Considering I have been here a lot longer than you, please don't let the door hit you in the A55 on your way out.

[Papa Bear]

[QUOTE=Papa Bear;6465] Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives ....QUOTE]


Where did you come up with this? You are WRONG! Most people ARE afraid to breathe underwater. It is against instinct and can be a problem for many people just starting out. Most people are afraid of sharks, but not as afraid as they are of not breathing!!!! Think about it.

Now aboutyour 4000+ dives and such, it maybe true, or it may be something you made up as no one has anyway to prove or disprove that. If it is true however, I think we found the problem. In your 56 years, I bet you learned a lot, but I think you have forgot a lot as well! You seem to think and you definately act like you are better than others here.

It must be that you are getting so old, because you are acting like the mean old man yelling at all of the kids in the neighborhood. All the while the kids are getting a kick out of taunting the old man.

You would think as a newbie (maybe you have a billion dives and 1000+ C-cards in every subject including jacking off) but you are a newbie HERE, you should have a little respect for the other users. All you are doing is showing how much of an A55hole you really are.

You said take it or leave it in another post, really I would perfer to leave it. Considering I have been here a lot longer than you, please don't let the door hit you in the A55 on your way out.

I am sorry, did I not lay enough gold at YOUR feet?

Did I attack your kid? Get a dive life! Go have a cup of coffee! You need it! People aren't afraid of SCUBA the shark question gets asked in shops across the world! The 70% comes from the industry! If anyone is out of touch, when was the last time you talked to new divers? I don't ACT at anything I do what I do. If it bothers you it is your problem not mine. I am here to support diving and lend experience and not hype! I am not here to scar anyone! I am here to tell people they can jump in and dive regardless of their condition and that anyone can do it! WITHIN THEIR LIMITS! You my friend need to take a long cool dive and think about where you are in the food chain! As far as on my way out! LMAO I am just getting started! :D

[acelockco]

[QUOTE=acelockco;6468]

I am sorry, did I not lay enough gold at YOUR feet?

Did I attack your kid?


No it is not that at all. All I am saying is you are NEW HERE and you are already making a lot of people very upset with your name calling. I already thought I let you know that before, but things did not change. I figured a taste of your own medicine would help you out. Maybe I was wrong.

Anyway, do whatever you want, say whatever you want. It does not really matter, because I think most of us have already lost all respect for you at this point. Go play dive god all you want. Or you can be a man and know when you were wrong and then start over.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

[phrenicnerve]

You have kinda changed your "tune" sense the first chord! I said you were being Elitist! And I stand behind what I said. SCUBA is very safe once you understand the process. Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive! More training isn't why, if they like it and want more they seek more training! The idea is to allow as many as want to, to have the experience. The Idea that you keep floating that "This is a Dangerous Sport" is just hogwash! It can be, but anyone can do it!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives has had a "few" close calls, mostly when I was young and bold, but still loves the Ocean and feels as safe in it as most people home mowing their lawn! Oh ya there is risk in that as well!

You are right about one thing I don't get YOU!:cool:


I attacked you?

oh man are you for real papa bear?...this is becoming pure comedy!

I'm done.

I haven't changed a single note in that chord you think you heard.

[Papa Bear]

What respect? And who cares? What names? Are you guys in the Twilight Zone? New has what to do with what? I am not new to diving, talking, forming opinions, losing freedom or fighting for it! You want what "Oh please Mr. Big Diver"? You want a discussion with yes men go hire one! I never called any body a "Name" where and when? I think your panties are in a bit of a bunch and you seem upset that the big bad man took your macho away by saying anyone can dive! Including handy capped and wounded G.I.s also I did mention Dogs I saw that on the Discovery Channel. BTW 200000 people are hurt on bicycles each year, now that is a dangerous activity! Not to mention Men and the Bicycles seat thing! Other than that I don't understand you hostility! Your attitude is a wonderful point as to why we should never license our activity, you might be put in charge! Now why don't you concentrate on your argument and less on your loss of respect for me before you make me cry! :( My feeling are so hurt. :p

Remember in Politics, if you don't have a good argument about the message attack the messenger!

[Tigerbeach]

I have been wading through this for a few days now.

My request, is that we all back away from this challenge of who can piss the highest, and use your considerable talents and experience towards a better purpose; OK?.
Let me know if you will accept my request.

Anthony

[jeff98208]

if dive certs become a "license" then it'll be the end of certs requiring NO renewal. so i heby am forced to say NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[DrBill]

Yes, I think that certification should require renewal every so many years unless one can demonstrate having done a certain number of dives within that period. I have seen far too many divers who have not dived in years come back to the sport without a refresher or recertification and been a PITA to dive with... not to mention rescue!

[scuba smurf]

[QUOTE=DrBill;9713]Yes, I think that certification should require renewal every so many years unless one can demonstrate having done a certain number of dives within that period. I have seen far too many divers who have not dived in years come back to the sport without a refresher or recertification and been a PITA to dive with... not to mention rescue!

the only problem with that would be the people who would sit in their kitchen and falsify their logbook to "show" diving experience. I've seen it done before..........well I saw the logbook with a few hundred falsified logs in it anyway.

[Tigerbeach]

So maybe we devise a test for these people; you know, a few questions we could ask to see if they REALLY have the experience to stay licensed.

What would YOU ask them?

[The Publisher]

In legal circles this is what we call a "slippery slope".

Let's cede all freedom, then turn around and ask the government for their permission to engage in every conceivable human endeavor.

Feel free to dissent....but....

If ye doubt your courage or strength, go no further, for DEATH awaits you all, with nasty, pointy teeth!

[Tigerbeach]

In legal circles this is what we call a "slippery slope".

Let's cede all freedom, then turn around and ask the government for their permission to engage in every conceivable human endeavor.

Feel free to dissent....but....

If ye doubt your courage or strength, go no further, for DEATH awaits you all, with nasty, pointy teeth!

I am not ceding anything to any government.
We need to govern ourselves.

Some divers don't belong in the tub.
If a simple test weeds out the fish from the bait, we are all better off.

[SCUBA411]

NO, there should not a mandated renewal process. Dive Centers and clubs should continue to make refresher courses available, and let prudent individuals take advantage of them. You can not regulate good/common sense. Frankly, I have no interest in saving people with bad judgement from themselves. I have not abdicated my personal responsibility to anyone and do not wish to be a nanny for anyone else.


This may sound harsh, but that slope is very slippery.

;)

[cajunfla]

from the observation / opinion of a lurking newbie:

Apparently many of you were born with hundreds of dives already in your logbooks. It seems that you have forgotten what it is like to be new to diving. I feel fairly safe in saying that many of you old-timers made some of the same mistakes you now bitch about.

How about giving new divers the same chance to learn that someone obviously gave you.

Yes, I am a newbie. Obtained my c-card in 1989, and never went back beause of $$. Now it's 2007, living in Guam, with the funds and opportunity, and recently took a refresher course that I demanded of myself.

Please, nothing personnal here, just remember when you had less than 100 dives in your books.

[amtrosie]

from the observation / opinion of a lurking newbie:

Apparently many of you were born with hundreds of dives already in your logbooks. It seems that you have forgotten what it is like to be new to diving. I feel fairly safe in saying that many of you old-timers made some of the same mistakes you now bitch about.

How about giving new divers the same chance to learn that someone obviously gave you.

Yes, I am a newbie. Obtained my c-card in 1989, and never went back beause of $$. Now it's 2007, living in Guam, with the funds and opportunity, and recently took a refresher course that I demanded of myself.

Please, nothing personnal here, just remember when you had less than 100 dives in your books.



We speak, not from the sodden pages of our logbooks, but rather from the MANY FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCES we have endured while diving in and around or in the vicinity of the unqualified! We were young and inexperienced, and knowing this, sought to mitigate those short comings! It is the divers that do nothing more than take a class and then think (very falsely) they are capable of any diving. After many dives, we quickly learn that we have much to learn, and those that don't dive often are a danger to themselves and every other diver around them.


I applaud your self awareness and the recognition of your short comings. You are the exception, not the rule!



Again, I can not emphasise enough the abysmal preparation that is often the infrequent diver. Their ignorance and ARROGANCE, and refusal to subject themselves to the learning process that is diving, is to the detriment of all that love this sport. Their selfishness is not to be tolerated!

[Tigerbeach]

from the observation / opinion of a lurking newbie:

Apparently many of you were born with hundreds of dives already in your logbooks. It seems that you have forgotten what it is like to be new to diving. I feel fairly safe in saying that many of you old-timers made some of the same mistakes you now bitch about.

How about giving new divers the same chance to learn that someone obviously gave you.

Yes, I am a newbie. Obtained my c-card in 1989, and never went back beause of $$. Now it's 2007, living in Guam, with the funds and opportunity, and recently took a refresher course that I demanded of myself.

Please, nothing personnal here, just remember when you had less than 100 dives in your books.

Make that thousands of dives. And we were trained differently. Old time divers were often hardcore watermen before they learned to dive. We were trained in self reliance, and swimming skills.
We have earned the right to bitch about newbies, if we choose.

YOU too, have the ability to learn what we know. Just keep training.
And along the way, trade your mouth for your ears.
Nothing personal...

[thalassamania]

I answered "yes" in this context. In the science community continued certification requires that you turn in logs each month that add upo to a total of 12 dives over the previous 12 months. Maintaining your depth qualification (30, 60, 100, 130, 150, or 190) requires a dive to that depth in the previous three months.

[littleleemur]

It's more an issue of responsibilty, that you have to others mostly. It's an activity that can endanger others if you royally F-up. People trying to save you, your buddy, other divers in the water having other issues that can escalate to emergencies....

In a perfect world (ha! :rolleyes: ) there would be fair and honest "renewal processes", but in a fair and honest world, there wouldn't be shake n' bake dive "pros" or renewal of driver's license by simply taking a new photo and updating your address. We would all have to take the road test again!

Have you seen suburban moms trying to negotiate the school parking lots? :eek: You'd think they were all driving tanks in Iraq!

I voted yes :o

[littleleemur]

Make that thousands of dives. And we were trained differently. Old time divers were often hardcore watermen before they learned to dive. We were trained in self reliance, and swimming skills.
We have earned the right to bitch about newbies, if we choose.

YOU too, have the ability to learn what we know. Just keep training.
And along the way, trade your mouth for your ears.
Nothing personal...

We all started as OW divers, but one of the things that pissed me off was a DM implying that being a Newbie in Scuba meant you were a Newbie at swimming too :mad:

On a dive trip, I caught that same DM "trying to get used to" the sensation of salt water! Hilarious! :rolleyes:

Too bad we didn't do any "real" shore diving, I would've loved to walk by him as he would be laying face first in the sand :D clobbered by miscalculating the wave sets

[Papa Bear]

Only when the pry my C-Card from my cold dead fingers! We in this country, and it will effect the world, have created a beast named Government and it is ugly and huge! It sucks life from the economy and when ever you try to trim it its employees scream the loudest! Its entitlements will eat 90% of a three "Trillion Dollar" budget, yet we bitch about fighting terrorists because we have been too effective it killing the SOB's and "That money could be spent here" on more welfare!

And for anyone to suggest that the government regulate and license an individual activity, that even if someone screws up will not necessarily involve anyone else, is the most insane thing I have heard next to electing a man named Obama President of the United States of America! Wake up America do we want the next three supreme court judges to be put in place by a man who's has only been a senator for 4 years and is left of Stalin? If so then a SCUBA license will be the least of our problems and will be mandatory in a few years!

I didn't mean to get political, but that is the point you will inject politics into SCUBA on a daily bases! Is that what we want? If we get socialized medicine we will get SCUBA licensed just like Canada! Why because if they are going to insure you they want to make sure your save to keep coast down! It is way beyond a slippery slop it is the Grand Canyon!

[littleleemur]

Now PB, socialized medicine isn't all that bad (although it isn't all that good either). & unfortunately Canada is not a very good example. At least kids with asthma get treatment and no one is trapped into a loveless, torturous job because of fear of being denied treatment for a pre-existing condition for switching to a better job & hence a different insurance plan/company.

There should be a middle ground.

Did you know that there is minimum requirement for keeping your real estate license? There should be something like that for some other (more important) things too. Maybe only for instructors?

Some people are just so inconsiderate and irresponsible and no one says anything. I don't beleive in over-policing, I much prefer laissez-faire, but some of the stuff going nowadays on is really ridiculous. Crap - I think I'm getting old.

[Papa Bear]

LOL Go ahead and vent! ;) But in Real estate you can hurt someone! Remember you need a license to keep up with the changes by the politicians! Real estate is far more dangerous than SCUBA;):eek: Always remember the alternative to getting older is not so good!:eek:

[littleleemur]

:p eh, sorri should've moved that to the rant & beef thread :p

I wouldn't mind looking younger ;)

[Papa Bear]

All in the eye of the beholder! Why are we our worst critics?

[bottlefish]

Did you know that there is minimum requirement for keeping your real estate license? There should be something like that for some other (more important) things too. Maybe only for instructors?

That's a thought that has crossed my mind on more then a few occasions. As a PADI/DSAT instructor, all I need to do to keep in status is pay my member fees to stay in status and keep up with the updates. I could go years without teaching or even diving, and then rock up to a 5 star IDC and take a group of DMs up to AI status, a bunch of newbies up to OW or a new techie diver up to extended range/accelerated deco diving to 50 metres.

In that context, i.e as a professional, perhaps it would be a good idea to have some prequesite (of continued relevant experience) to retain your stripes? For instance, PADI insist that an EFR instructor teaches at least one course every two years to retain their EFR Instructor status, why not the same for diving instructor?

As for the recreational diver, I'm very much against the idea. Despite being impossible to manage worldwide, I think it would also end up being restricted to the lowest common demoninator, i.e. to the point of obsurdity.

However what I would like to see is a little more interest taken by dive centres and boats, i.e looking for last dive date, log book experience and cert cards, enforcing a check out dive if they're not sure if a diver is up to the dive they have asked to jump in on.

IMHO we don't need government intervention to control recreational diving activity, we have all the tools in the industry to self regulate. And if we apply the tools carefully we'd not only improve safety, we'd also help the industry as a whole, by identifying and promoting where a diver may need to update their skills or take on further training...

[seasnake]

I think there is about eight "active" diving instructor/dive masters in my little town. If they were all assembled today and tested, I dare say only two of them would pass a (properly evaluated) basic scuba course, let alone an instructor level evaluation.

[littleleemur]

There's a Continuing Education requirement set by the SEC for all Brokers/Dealers (everyone all the way up to the top). You have to take a multiple choice test (no exceptions) that lasts about an hour or so every 2 years. If you don't you loose your license to trade/buy/sell. Supposedly protects investors. However, there are no independants. You must be affiliated with a company that can a compliance manager. That's why there are so many small boutique firms in the US: get your buddies together and start your own if you don't like working for the big boys.;)

Maybe a system like that? But then we loose our Independant Instructors :( Shops can be so catty.:(

[Papa Bear]

That's a thought that has crossed my mind on more then a few occasions. As a PADI/DSAT instructor, all I need to do to keep in status is pay my member fees to stay in status and keep up with the updates. I could go years without teaching or even diving, and then rock up to a 5 star IDC and take a group of DMs up to AI status, a bunch of newbies up to OW or a new techie diver up to extended range/accelerated deco diving to 50 metres.

In that context, i.e as a professional, perhaps it would be a good idea to have some prequesite (of continued relevant experience) to retain your stripes? For instance, PADI insist that an EFR instructor teaches at least one course every two years to retain their EFR Instructor status, why not the same for diving instructor?

As for the recreational diver, I'm very much against the idea. Despite being impossible to manage worldwide, I think it would also end up being restricted to the lowest common demoninator, i.e. to the point of obsurdity.

However what I would like to see is a little more interest taken by dive centres and boats, i.e looking for last dive date, log book experience and cert cards, enforcing a check out dive if they're not sure if a diver is up to the dive they have asked to jump in on.

IMHO we don't need government intervention to control recreational diving activity, we have all the tools in the industry to self regulate. And if we apply the tools carefully we'd not only improve safety, we'd also help the industry as a whole, by identifying and promoting where a diver may need to update their skills or take on further training...

Well stated and well thought out!

[Tigerbeach]

That's a thought that has crossed my mind on more then a few occasions. As a PADI/DSAT instructor, all I need to do to keep in status is pay my member fees to stay in status and keep up with the updates. I could go years without teaching or even diving, and then rock up to a 5 star IDC and take a group of DMs up to AI status, a bunch of newbies up to OW or a new techie diver up to extended range/accelerated deco diving to 50 metres.

In that context, i.e as a professional, perhaps it would be a good idea to have some prequesite (of continued relevant experience) to retain your stripes? For instance, PADI insist that an EFR instructor teaches at least one course every two years to retain their EFR Instructor status, why not the same for diving instructor?

As for the recreational diver, I'm very much against the idea. Despite being impossible to manage worldwide, I think it would also end up being restricted to the lowest common demoninator, i.e. to the point of obsurdity.

However what I would like to see is a little more interest taken by dive centres and boats, i.e looking for last dive date, log book experience and cert cards, enforcing a check out dive if they're not sure if a diver is up to the dive they have asked to jump in on.

IMHO we don't need government intervention to control recreational diving activity, we have all the tools in the industry to self regulate. And if we apply the tools carefully we'd not only improve safety, we'd also help the industry as a whole, by identifying and promoting where a diver may need to update their skills or take on further training...

In my experienced opinion, this has been talked about forever; long before I stopped teaching 18 years ago (as a Course Director). Talk isn't improving anything.
Long ago, thirst for the mighty dollar replaced good old fashioned swimming skills, personal responsibility, and common sense.
For example, if I am involved in an auto accident, will anyone ask me who taught me to drive? But if it's a diving accident, that's exactly what they will ask, isn't it?
As an Instructor, I will need liability insurance in case I get sued by a former student.

What lunacy.

I think 'C' cards should expire, unless a certain number of dives can be shown.
This number can vary depending on the training level. Advanced training would start the time over.
Just because you took a resort course 20 years ago shouldn't make you certified for life.

The Scuba industry isn't regulating itself; Guess who may step in,
and do it in their place?

[seasnake]

For example, if I am involved in an auto accident, will anyone ask me who taught me to drive? But if it's a diving accident, that's exactly what they will ask, isn't it?

That's a very good point, and I dare say driving a car puts more people at risk than going on a dive.

[Papa Bear]

I agree it is a great point, and I have been putting a lot of thought about the point of the analogy. I would also equate it to a four lane highway with that many lane choices and many should stay in the slow lane. We have the system and I have seen people enforce it on dive boats and some resorts..... That is if you have a level of certification the DM lets you do a certain type of dive! If you have an OWC you are watched and asked about your comfort level, more baby sitting is done, even if by eye only. If you demonstrate your ability to the DM then you get a little more freedom......;) So do we have a good safety recored in resorts and live-a-board's? I think so. If we are talking about dedicated divers they are diving enough to be better divers. Remember the only thing a card does is release the "Operator's" from liability. It doesn't make you a diver it makes you liable for the air in our tank and the actions you take with it.

I have been on many Freeways where the person next to me must have gotten their license from a Cracker Jack's box. A license doesn't mean we are accident free. There are times when I think it's just another way to collect taxes. In California we have so many people who shouldn't be here let alone on the hwy.

[littleleemur]

I have another question about this "license" renewal thing but am not sure if I should start a new thread or not, considering whatever will be discussed will be based on what was already said here.

Most of us have expressed that a recreational diver should self-monitor and be responsible enough to himself and his buddy to dive within his ability & that a dive professional should preferably be monitored by their own agency. & the last thing we would want is for the government to get involved.

The question now is should there be a requirement to notify/retest or renew the diving certification if one's circumstances change enough to change one's abilities in the water? For example, surgeries, cancer treatment, aging 10 years etc?

What are your thought on this? A 16 year old who is a monster in the water, may still be one at 26, less so at 36, 46, 56, 66.... Then there are bits of life that happen.... or is there a worry that while one aces the swim test at 26 would probably flunk it at 56?

[Diverdaniel]

I have another question about this "license" renewal thing but am not sure if I should start a new thread or not, considering whatever will be discussed will be based on what was already said here.

1. Most of us have expressed that a recreational diver should self-monitor and be responsible enough to himself and his buddy to dive within his ability & that a dive professional should preferably be monitored by their own agency. & the last thing we would want is for the government to get involved.

1. that a diver should self moniter is taught in every OW course I teach.
In Israel Dive pro's are regularly checked medically by a diving doc.
The Israeli govornment monitors dive pro's and dive centers, any instructor/diveshop/air/gas station has to be evaluated and checked a few times every year and has to be officially licensed.
any dive facility/instructor has to not only have the dive agency's active teaching status, but also a govornmental teaching status depending on your level and all.
a few times a year a representative fomr the govornment will come and join dive instructors in pool/OW or class sessions and go through dive training records to ensure that all is well and the quality is indeed being kept to govornmental standard.



2.The question now is should there be a requirement to notify/retest or renew the diving certification if one's circumstances change enough to change one's abilities in the water? For example, surgeries, cancer treatment, aging 10 years etc?

2. I think so, kust like drivers have to take medicals every time something changes, so should divers. Also, this is taught in OW courses(or should be taught, i dont know what every agency teaches). Dive pro's on the other hand need to be checked every 2 years, this is mandatory for governmental and agency active staus.



3.What are your thought on this? A 16 year old who is a monster in the water, may still be one at 26, less so at 36, 46, 56, 66.... Then there are bits of life that happen.... or is there a worry that while one aces the swim test at 26 would probably flunk it at 56?
3. see the above.

:)

[seasnake]

Diverdaniel ... what affect has this had on diver safety and dive accidents in the country?

[Diverdaniel]

we have very very accidents few compared to the rest of the world.
dive safety, i couldnt tell you, since i have not taught or dived much out of Israel.
I know that compared to the Sinai, we are concdered ultra safe and rule abiding. ie, we dont take 4 intro's' per one instructor to the depth of 20 metres(yes, i have seen this happen, not try scuba either, just 5 min breifing-jump in water intro's!!!)
and all sorts of other stories.
we dont take guideed dives to 50 metres,
recreational diving here is restricted to 30 metres, unless you are DM or higher. and only then to max of your agencies limit: SSI 39m-5min ,all the rest 42 metres between 7-5min NDL
to exceed NDL have to be tech diver, if caught, bent, injured: dive license is revoked for life and it is treated like a federal offence, you breake the law of the country, stuff like that, there are alot of fights against this atm though.

for divepro's here, getting QA'd by their agency isnt a problem and doesnt scare much, its getting QA'd by the govornment, thats the scary bit, one could end up in the slammer.

pretty hardcore but it works most times